If you believe in heaven, do you have to believe in hell? A few weeks back, Joey and Haroon sat down with Washington Post columnist, author of multiple books, including The Case for American Power, and fellow podcaster Shadi Hamid for an unexpectedly candid and sincerely searching conversation. If you already know Shadi from his writings, like you can find at Wisdom of Crowds, well… there’s a lot you’ll love. We’ve got Shadi talking about America’s place in the world, about democracy and about Gaza.

But we wanted to learn more about Shadi as a man and man of faith, to understand how he’s become one of our most national voices without parking his creed, convictions and commitments at the door. We asked hard questions — which Shadi gamely pursued. Is Shadi happy? Does Shadi believe that question really matters? How does Shadi feel about the choices he made earlier in his life? What advice would Shadi give to young men today, especially young men of faith?

Because we know and follow Shadi and his work, we chose him as one of our first guests. But what resulted exceeded our expectations. If you’re not already following Shadi, now you have some sense of what you’re missing!

Shadi’s ability to balance a serious commitment to his faith with the willingness to be challenged, to explore and engage distinct and even conflicting ideas, to be a model for manhood and meaning in our modern world.

Avenue M is hosted by Joey Taylor and Haroon Moghul. We’re two men on a journey of faith and meaning. In each episode we speak with remarkable guests to help us unpack the moments that shape us, the struggles that build us and the questions that intrigue us.

This episode's sponsor is Queen City Diwan. Queen City Diwan designs remarkable journeys and inspiring experiences that teach and transform. Because at Queen City Diwan, we believe travel isn’t just about where you go–but about who you go with. And who you are when you come home.

Avenue M is produced by Bespoken Live with music from Zach Swelbar, who plays in Circle It and Mosant.