In this episode, we focus on the struggle of what to call the outputs that aren't journal or book publications. We update on an article from Dame Jessica Corner on the People, Culture and Environment statement, what's happening with REF panelists and - for possibly the first time in history - use the words "secretariat" and "interesting" in the same sentence.

If you want to learn more about how you can engage with the REF, you should sign up for the Festival of Hidden REF on the 7-8 October 2025 at Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum. The Festival focuses on sharing knowledge about non-traditional outputs and Hidden Roles, collecting new ideas and the latest developments from attendees and, most importantly, celebrating everyone who contributes to research.

If you have a question about the REF or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

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