This week marks a powerful shift on Crime Roundup as Emmy-winning CSI Sheryl “Mac” McCollum welcomes her new cohost: legal heavyweight and courtroom force Joshua Schiffer. In this episode, Sheryl and Joshua unpack the sentencing of Bryan Kohberger, the man behind one of the most gut-wrenching mass murders in recent memory.

Through the lens of law, justice, and most of all, parenthood, they reflect on the strength of the victims' families, the purpose of the court system, and the brutal reality of maximum-security prison. They also examine the legal mechanics behind the plea deal that spared Kohberger the death penalty, the boldness of the Chapin family’s absence, and the lasting impact of survivor statements.

With heart, grit, and powerful legal insight, Sheryl and Joshua hold nothing back in honoring the victims—Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin—and challenging listeners to choose light in the darkest of stories.

Show Notes:

• (0:00) Welcome to the “Schiffa Zone” – Sheryl introduces new cohost Joshua Schiffer
• (1:00) Kohberger’s sentencing through the eyes of parents and legal pros
• (2:30) “Our system hasn’t worked better... We received justice that was fulsome and appropriate.” —Joshua on justice done right
• (4:00) Grief, guilt, and impact: survivor and family statements that shook the courtroom
• (12:30) A look inside maximum-security prison: no peace, no control
• (15:00) “The warden don’t run that place”—violence, silence, and punishment
• (18:00) Justice over vengeance: why the plea deal was the right call
• (23:45) Why the Chapin family’s absence may have been the most powerful message
• (24:15) Final reflections: the power of memory, and the choice to look up

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About the Hosts

Joshua Schiffer is a veteran trial attorney and one of the Southeast’s most respected legal voices. He is a founding partner at ChancoSchiffer P.C., where he has litigated high-stakes criminal, civil rights, and personal injury cases for over two decades. Known for his bold courtroom presence and ability to clearly explain complex legal issues, Schiffer is a frequent media contributor and fearless advocate for accountability.

Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.

If you enjoyed this episode, follow Crime Roundup on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review to help others find the show. Have a case you’d like Sheryl and Joshua to cover? Email coldcase2004@gmail.com, or connect with the hosts on social media:

Sheryl on X at @ColdCaseTips or Facebook at @sheryl.mccollum

Joshua on X at and Instagram at @lawyerschiff

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Scott Payne is a retired FBI agent and career undercover operative. Known for infiltrating some of the most dangerous domestic terror groups in the U.S., he now writes, trains, and advocates for smarter law enforcement strategies—and a second chance for those who truly want out. He’s a believer in justice, redemption, and calling hate by its name.

Follow Scott on Instagram:@scottpaynebigcountry and check out his brand-new book: Code Name: Pale Horse — a raw, real look inside the FBI’s most dangerous undercover ops.

Episode Description:

In Part 2 of CSI Sheryl McCollum’s conversation with retired FBI agent Scott Payne, we dive into one of his most dangerous assignments: two years undercover with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club in Massachusetts. From fake drug deals and cartel cover stories to a basement wire check that nearly cost him everything, Scott explains what it really takes to survive deep undercover.

If you thought infiltrating The Base deep in the woods of the Pacific Northwest was intense, wait until you hear what happened when members of the Outlaws Motorcycle Club ordered him to strip at gunpoint.

Show Notes:

• (0:00) From Georgia to Massachusetts, Scott recounts his time undercover with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club
• (4:00) Meet “Tex,” the car thief: stolen vehicles, staged deals, and the slow build of credibility
• (5:00) A fake cartel pipeline opens the door to something much bigger — and far more dangerous
• (8:00) “I lived to fight another day.” Two armed bikers, a basement, and a wire check that could’ve blown it all
• (14:00) His team was listening — and almost took out a wall to pull him out
• (16:00) Nearly 2,000 miles away, Scott’s wife pulls off the road with a sense of dread she can’t explain
• (17:45) Sheryl shares her own “undercover” mission — cracking down on counterfeit T-shirts at a Grateful Dead concert
• (18:45) Clothesline won’t say sorry—but he hated being the one to do it
• (24:00) Sheryl plugs the book and gives props to Scott — not just for the work, but for always lifting up his team
• (26:00) The last word belongs to Donnie Brasco: “The FBI gave you a cheap medal and 500 bucks. Was it worth it?” “Yes.”

Thanks for listening to another episode! If Zone 7 is part of your weekly routine, show us some love with a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more folks find the show—and helps us keep telling these stories.

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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice and the founder/director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute — a collaboration between universities and the criminal justice community that advances techniques for solving unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.

Social Links:

• Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com

• Twitter: @ColdCaseTips

• Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum

• Instagram: @officialzone7podcast

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CSI Sheryl McCollum sits down with retired FBI agent Scott Payne, who went deep undercover inside a violent white supremacist group known as The Base.

From satanic rituals to grooming kids on Roblox, Scott reveals how he earned their trust—and helped bring their network down from the inside.

This is Part 1 of a raw, unfiltered look at radicalization, recruitment, and the real-world tactics used to spread hate.

Scott Payne is a retired FBI agent and career undercover operative. Known for infiltrating some of the most dangerous domestic terror groups in the U.S., he now writes, trains, and advocates for smarter law enforcement strategies—and a second chance for those who truly want out. He’s a believer in justice, redemption, and calling hate by its name.

Follow Scott on Instagram:@scottpaynebigcountry and check out his brand-new book: Code Name: Pale Horse — A raw, real look inside the FBI’s most dangerous undercover ops.

⚠️ Listener Advisory:

This episode contains graphic descriptions of violence, animal cruelty, hate group ideology, and child exploitation. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

Show Notes:

• (0:00) Sheryl welcomes Scott Payne, retired FBI agent and undercover operator known as Pale Horse
• (1:00) Inside The Base — a newer kind of white supremacy with global connections
• (1:45) Accelerationism explained: why these extremists want to speed up society’s collapse
• (3:15) The man behind the madness: The Base’s leader and his Russian relocation
• (4:00) A darker turn — 764, satanism, and how extremists groom children through platforms like Roblox and Minecraft
• (6:15) Halloween 2019: a hate camp, a cold snap, and a stolen goat that didn’t stand a chance
• (10:00) Operating undercover — “It’s not always cakes and pies.” Into the woods with a machete and a mission
• (15:00) Blood, acid, and a goat’s head — a ritual unfolds over three days with hallucinogens, photo ops, and propaganda designed to radicalize and recruit
• (17:30) “What was your red pill moment?” — the art of playing dumb, feeding egos, and staying undercover without getting made
• (22:00) From felon to future — why Scott wrote a reference letter for the man he once helped put away

Thanks for listening to another episode! If Zone 7 is part of your weekly routine, show us some love with a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more folks find the show—and helps us keep telling these stories.

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Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a collaboration between universities and colleges that brings researchers, practitioners, students and the criminal justice community together to advance techniques in solving cold cases and assist families and law enforcement with solvability factors for unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnapping cases.

Social Links:

• Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com

• Twitter: @ColdCaseTips

• Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum

• Instagram: @officialzone7podcast

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.